Put 24 points in the Christmas post

By Greg Tyndall

Mourinho is not the only Premier League manager Arsene struggles to beat

During the summer there were many who were concerned on a macro level about the appointment of Conte and Guardiola. The widely held view was that these two managers would make potential title rivals (cough) stronger in the league. This has certainly already been proven correct in the case of Conte and once Pep gets his defence right city will also be much stronger.

My bigger concern, and one that I shared with my Dad at the time, was that with Guardiola came yet another manager that our great leader simply cannot defeat. He gets added to the list of Mourinho, Klopp and Koeman. Effectively this means that under this manager we might as well post out the 24 points at the beginning of the season. We may get the odd one back in return but on the evidence of this week it will very much be the odd one.

You can even possibly now add Pochettino to this growing number of unbeatable managers. As far as Conte is concerned, let's not pretend that Arsene might have a plan to deal with him. We caught him cold early on in the season, I think we all know this will not be repeated at Stamford Bridge.

Now, you can point to tactics, Wenger not being an elite manager, him and his teams being out thought or out fought or simply being "not up for the fight". Ultimately the reason is irrelevant - big data suggests that whatever the cause, the record is shocking.

Would another manager be able to lift this current bunch of players to the levels required to beat one of the above managers? Who knows? I think however that we have now got to the stage where we have to take the plunge and find out.

There has been talk of psychologists working with the club this year, something the manager was keen to play down. Unless the psychologist is working with Wenger to overcome his performance anxiety when it comes to playing these managers then it is irrelevant. You can't tell me that the players don't know how bad his record is. It looked like they had given up again after City drew level.

When a team is fighting for its life and trying to stay up, they look at games against top opposition as the possibility of getting a bonus point or two. Their efforts are concentrated on "beating the teams around them". I think we need to be realistic and accept that we fall into the same category now, games against the above managers exist as nothing more than bonus points. Our fourth place trophy is earned by beating the so-called lesser teams.

A final point, when a striker has a good first season, this is often difficult to repeat. Footage exists of their movement, the way they like to receive the ball etc and smart managers will analyse this and adjust their defences accordingly. There now exists two decades of historic evidence of how we play and the above managers probably don't even bother doing any current research, why bother when all you need to do is watch any Arsenal game from the last ten years? You don't even need to watch a single previous Arsenal match to know when the subs will come on!

We have seen the film now hundreds of times, maybe just maybe there might be a different ending this year?

A quick question to finish. Would you rather have both Alexis and Ozil on long term deals with Wenger signing a new two year contract or lose both players if it meant we got a new manager?

20th December 2016 09:00:00


Comments and Reaction

User comments on this article are now closed. If you want to continue the debate, why not do so on the Gooner Forum.

GS  10:09am 20th Dec 2016

Answer ; I would be happy to lose Ozil & Alexis if it means Wenger goes - short term pain for long term gain. You would think that if Wenger cannot beat certain managers he would make it his Top priority to figure out how to beat them, and not be constantly embarrassed by them season after season, that alone suggests he cannot cut it any more, and he himself is tired and washout. Love Arsenal - hate Regime. - Post No. 101656

G10  10:20am 20th Dec 2016

Has the author of this article managed even half a day in his life? The worst thing about it all is that The Old Fraud gets bumholed time and time again by the same managers and seems to have no concept of perhaps changing anything to try and both overcome the previous issues and give the opponents something new to deal with. Wenger Out. - Post No. 101658

David  10:26am 20th Dec 2016

It's not even the manager. It's the club. Manchester United were there for the taking at Old Toilet last season and as per usual Arsenal choke. There is the odd victory against United and Chelsea, but the record since 2004 in all competitions is shocking. 18 defeats to Chelsea (7 draws and 5 wins) and 19 to united (7 draws and 7 wins). Even worse only one league victory at either Old Toilet or Stamford Bridge in the last 12 season. There are ominous signs that Man City, Liverpool and Spurs will also have similar records. How can serious title contenders have such a bad record against their rivals? - Post No. 101659

John F  10:31am 20th Dec 2016

I would rather lose both and have Wenger leave.If Wenger was in charge of the current Chelsea team I do not think they would be 6 points clear at the top.He has become stale and predictable,he really should be looking at a nice flat by the sea with a blanket and a hot cup of cocoa. - Post No. 101660

Le Dinosaur  11:05am 20th Dec 2016

He's stuck in the dark ages, tactically inept, a Loser mentality that seeps down to his apologist fans, 0 PL titles in 13 years soon when even Ranieri got sacked everywhere and came back to win one, a pathetic embarrassing CL record that he tried to disguise as "consistency" (yeah consistently rubbish), caveman training regimes that lead to injury, always paying garbage Galactico wages (see Walcott, Giroud, Ramsey, Gibbs etc), a joke in the transfer market and so arrogant he refuses to accept any player being paid more than him! I'd rather lose Alexis and Ozil if it means Wenger goes no question. Having Wenger in the dugout each year means you can expect to be out of the title race before Xmas, irrelevant in the CL. His lack of class is galling, no humility, a Specialist in Failure. The ease with which Koeman, Pochettino, Klopp etc deal with him shows what a busted flush he is. The board don't keep him oh for sporting reasons, purely greedy financial ones. The fans can change this by protesting loud and clear and STOP PAYING FOR OVERPRICED TICKETS. Wenger OUT and he shoulda been sacked in 2008 FFS. He's not a football man just a greedy selfish narcissist. - Post No. 101662

Nick  11:24am 20th Dec 2016

Agree with most of that Gregg except for a truth that is always ignored ,firstly in manures last title winning campaign their record vs main rivals was very poor BUT they DID beat those they were expected to beat already this season we have failed in that a poor draw at home to Middlesbrough for a start a poor draw away to a struggling Leicester City had we won those games we would be just 5 points behind Chelsea if you add Everton to the list of teams we really SHOULD be beating then we would be only 2 points behind Contes team with some kind fixtures coming up ! This failure against the so called lesser sides has been the major reason for our not winning any titles in the last 12 years ! Our slump last term was caused by losses away to Swansea West Brom and Southamphon all games we lost with a total of 9 points I know there were also a couple of games we drew from winning positions too so if you add up the points from them you will see that we would have won the league ! Even going back to the 2003 campaign it was points dropped to teams like Bolton that cost us the title ! The reason is in my view that our team reflects the character of our manager being arrogant and sulky two traits that cost us against hard working honest teams who are fired up by our lack of respect! - Post No. 101664

Ron  11:50am 20th Dec 2016

We re very much like the Eng Cricket team was in the 90s. They were conditioned to defeat v Australia and SA etc before a series started and it took years to shed the baggage that many of the players and staff carried around. It was done by changing the team and the men at the top. Make no mistake, for all AW says, hes rooted in a defeatist mindset born of frequent thrashings by the top Clubs down the years. His teams are bound to be affected similarly. How could they not be? The loss to Moyes Utd was the clear evidence of that. If ever Man U were ripe for beating at OT, it was that day. Still we went there timidly and rolled over for them. Nothing will change until hes gone. Its not personal, its just the case that his time came and went. Arsene should have walked after the 8-2 thumping in my view. He could still then have gone with honour and dignity. That 8-2 for me was the most humiliating defeat perhaps in the Clubs history. He should have recognised that and offered to go. - Post No. 101665

Torbay Gooner  12:31pm 20th Dec 2016

Good post Gregg, Wenger's record against these top managers just reflects the team's CL results in the knock out games since 2006. He cannot hack it against well organized(coached) opposition and it has been well documented why. As for your question, we don't need another 2 years of stagnation under Wenger, besides which I would drive Ozil to the airport myself if necessary! - Post No. 101666

mbg  13:20pm 20th Dec 2016

Good Article Greg, all these new top managers to our shores have TOF sussed out and in their pocket, and it didn't take them long, and a lot of them already had anyway from the CL, but lets not forget our own prem ones even the average and below mangers (his own level)a lot of them have had him sussed for years too, especially the ones who don't roll over and play dead for him every time they meet. We're a soft touch and a laughing stock to boot, and have been for years too thanks to the old fool, a lot of us don't like that, and happen to care, others don't and will back their messiah regardless, but it's definitely time for change and has been for seven years now. wenger out out out. - Post No. 101667

Bard  13:42pm 20th Dec 2016

Good article Greg. The manner of the last two defeats has surely sealed Wengers fate. Forget the nuances and tactical switches, If you cant produce a team that fights tooth and nail something is drastically wrong. This is nothing we havent seen before. Different personnel same attitude same result. Will be interesting to see whether Arsenal do any business in the Jan window. - Post No. 101668

Smithy  13:53pm 20th Dec 2016

There's a video on Facebook on Arsenal choking syndrome- it seems arsene and his pantomime are making us the laughing stock of the premier league. - Post No. 101670

jeff wright  15:49pm 20th Dec 2016

Nick , our games against ,Chelsea A. Liverpool A . Man City H. Spuds A. Followed by United at home involve 15 points are you claiming that Wengo can afford to lose those games and still win the Prem >? I reckon that he will struggle to get 4th!Soke away second last game looks tricky as well. By the way United did not fail against the top sides in their last title winning season that Wengo was forced to provide a guard of honour for when RVP trotted out at the Emirates experience with the title won with 4 games to spare .United results against top 4 opponents for that 2010-11 season :Liverpool H. W.3-1 spuds H. W.2-0. City A .D. 0-0. Arsenal H. W.1-0. spuds A D.0-0. City H. W2-1.L.A.W.3-1. Arsenal A.D.0-0 Chelsea.H.W2-1. So no losses at all against top 4 opponents and 80 points won in total from all the 38 games played with just 4 defeats all againsT LOWER none top 4 opposition. Case closed m'lud ! - Post No. 101672

71guns  16:29pm 20th Dec 2016

... Lose both and get a new manager - no brainer. The stars will come and go but the club/ team has been in 'groundhodg day' mode for nearly 10 years, we're stuck in a rut and only a change of the way things are done will make a difference. Wenger will always think and act like Wenger (obviously) he will always blame the ref, or not see any wrong decisions that go for us, Bould will always agree with Wenger and Kroenke will continue to cream off the top, until he gets bored and 'gives'the club (like a family heirloom) to his son... - Post No. 101673

Gaz  16:51pm 20th Dec 2016

Good grief it's obvious! I'd lose them two and a few more if it meant Wenger would finally leave! It's all so bloody boring and repetitive and has been for years. - Post No. 101675

CORNISH GOONER  16:57pm 20th Dec 2016

mbg, very bad news I'm afraid. Just had a reply from the Chinese equivalent to our Prem League in response to my "leaflet drop" regarding a 50 million pa contract for OGL. I posed as his Agent, quoting a very modest commission of 1% which would nicely supplement my modest retirement incomes. The reply was very full & extremely polite as you would expect, thanking me for my interest in their League, but the killer last line said "Wenger must stay" - signed Lee Ke Won (CEO). Hope you fare rather better. - Post No. 101676

jjetplane  17:11pm 20th Dec 2016

Very good piece and the difference between Wenger and the rest of these serial winners is they act as though they always have only one season to make a difference. None of them suffer or exploit the mythology that has been built around Wenger for the past two decades ansd he was called out for it by JM and when Pep was asked the other day about doing a 20 year stint at one club you could see the bemusement. When you look up Pep on Wiki you get exhausted reading what he has actually won and he being only 45 years old. Prior to the game at Citeh Untold (arch myth suppliers) they were saying who is the best manager now? ****e and after the game they are back to cod psychology essays and the usual sniping in front of a lap top. They are a mirror to Wenger who for allthe taalk about being a 24/7 football man we ask 'where is the ****ing evidence in silver currency?'. Klopp is impressing even more than I thought so a battle between the Mancs, Chelski and Liverpool looks on the cards while Porchie shoyuld steal 5th with Wenger looking looking 8 million pounds of pain at the season's end and ready to go into a 2 year contract as a transitional phase until a new 'catering manager with accountancy experience' is installed .... Used to like GG in the old blazer get up but Wenger has made it shoddy. - Post No. 101677

mbg  17:25pm 20th Dec 2016

Smithy, your dead right it's been like that for years now, but it being Xmas again and the pantomime season and all that just compounds it, snow white wenger (he certainly is not he has a lot to answer for) and his little dwarfs a real fooking pantomime, hey ho hey ho it's off to work we go we tip we tap from front to back, I sit I rock I really should have long been sacked, i complain I blame we're a f*****g laughing stock but I don't care i'm a mutli millionaire, so there so there I don't f*****g care yous all out there can kiss my arse i dare because i don't f*****g care. Go now wenger you embarrassment. - Post No. 101678

Finsbury Joe  17:35pm 20th Dec 2016

Heed the words of The Great Myles Palmer, Wenger is going nowhere, he has signed a two year deal. This guy gets it right every time, would love to know who his source is. Even finishing 6th wont alter Wenger staying, because such a finish is more attractive to this conservative board and owner than going out and taking a risk. Alexis and Ozil will be sold this summer, there will be some downsizing to compensate finishing outside the top four, but the money will still flow in , so the trinity that wreck their club will be happy. Fans who vote with their feet will be replaced by tourists. Arsenal will be 3rd in London, and 6th will be the new 4th. Stan will tend to his LA club, Ivan will rake in the wage increases, and Wenger will widen his search for the next Amaury Bischoff - Post No. 101680

Nick  17:43pm 20th Dec 2016

Jeff no I'm not claiming that but it is a FACT that manure DID win titles despite not having a great record against close rivals 2003 illustrates this, they drew at home to us and lost away yet because we dropped points against the likes of Bolton we came second ! Say as you did we drop 15 points against the top sides that leaves another NINETY NINE points to play for its ENTIRELY possible to win the league by being flat track bullies providing your very good at it, we are not, especially away from home ! Had we beaten Southampton , WBA , Swansea and West Ham away we would have won the league by ONE point that is a mathematical FACT! - Post No. 101681

mbg  17:57pm 20th Dec 2016

It's an absolute no brainer, definitely lose the players if it meant wenger pissing off, and as Gaz says a few more along with them. - Post No. 101682

Mark from Aylesbury  18:02pm 20th Dec 2016

Finsbury Joe- I can tell you Myles often gets it very wrong indeed. I've even read him where he says he's going to break an amazing story then next week no story and onto something else. He's still going on about be best mates with Rod Stewart even though he last saw him about 30 years ago. Anyway if he stays a further two years. All we will do is continue the ruinous atmosphere. Wengo will suffer further humiliations and fall further down the pecking order with managers queuing up to beat him. Ill health and sheer inability to do the job effectively would probably see him off. Meanwhile your lot, not really seeing it sunshine. When you get the new ground it will starve you of funds. Not looking good I'd say. - Post No. 101683

Mark  18:13pm 20th Dec 2016

Piers Morgan got it right when he said we have an Analogue Manager in a Digital Age. Wenger is simply way out of his league against mourinho, klopp, Potch, Pep, Koerman, Conte. we Need a Simeone to throw in the middle of this Group and fight ! - Post No. 101684

mbg  18:31pm 20th Dec 2016

CORNISH, there was me getting all excited over the possibility that TOF could be the next Bruce Lee, ah well it'll have to be a punch drunk past it upstairs then, I've resigned myself to that anyway, he'd have been out of sight out of mind, the other side of the world would have been a bonus, but do us a favour and try again, you agents can be very persuasive, how about offering Lee Ke Won a bung, money talks, after all George Graham was his Hero, let us know how you get on, hopefully it's good news and we can look forward to the new year. - Post No. 101685

brighton gooner  18:52pm 20th Dec 2016

I would sell any of them if TOF was persuaded to go. I am finding it increasingly difficult to motivate myself to go to games any more and have even started to stop watching live games. I just know whats going to happen whe we implode time after time. Same style, tactics (or lack of) boring substitutions and no f******g bottle. Just imagine what Klopp, Maureen, Poccetino or even Howe or Dyche would do with our existing players! You have to suspect any of them would get more out our squad! Arsene PLEASE GO - Post No. 101686

jeff wright  19:05pm 20th Dec 2016

Nick, that 2003 title win was in another era the top 4 ,was it a top 4 or just 2 CL places back then, anyway United did not face the same level of opposition that season as they did in the 2011 last title win for Sir Ferguson courtesy of Wengo having helped him do it by selling him RVP and then ignominiously having to provide a 'guard of honour ' for the cretin when he swaggered out at the Emirates with the title already done and dusted.Your hypothesis ignores some other factors for it to work all the top sides would have to take less points from the lower sides and lose points to one another by drawing their games .All very unlikely this scenario the 2003 title win was a one off for United just like their treble season and our unbeaten .You also ignore the obvious FACT that when you beat a top 4 opponent that it's a double whammy because you deprive them of 3 points while gaining 3 as against beating lower case sides when most likely your opponents if not playing one another also win points. That was the scenario with us against City and that is why they are 2nd now and we are 4th. - Post No. 101687

Bonzo  19:09pm 20th Dec 2016

Jamee and Squeak :- looks like the "Wengie Doll" is in stock at Amazon for 1.99. It appears to have the same face as the "Wicked Witch" edition all old looking and wrinkly but they have painted the hair grey and slapped on an anorak. If you press the button it repeats 4th place is a trophy over and over again. Looks like a nice Christmas prezzie for you both. Oh sorry Jamee I forgot you don't do Christmas. Still never mind perhaps for your birthday. - Post No. 101688

jjetplane  20:04pm 20th Dec 2016

You would think Arsene would chuck the grey duvet after a month's wear but no the tell tell signs that he has been to the launderette and over done it on the drying is there for all to see. You would think the players would wish their favourite uncle would look his best on awaydays. Maybe get him a new jumper or something. Whoopee cushion would not go amiss in the dug out. Place it there in the 70th minute when he needs to get up and see if Olly is still in the ground. Just had an AKB called Jeff/Geoff on the radio saying give him another 2 years in order to get a PL win instead of waiting for a new bloke to win one. The logic of scientology. Most of the pundits slept through it ...... - Post No. 101690

Bonzo  20:51pm 20th Dec 2016

Jameeba - where the hell is your pal Squeak? The last entry was Wenger is Arsenals greatest ever manager then complete silence. I can't think what has Happened? - Post No. 101692

Nick  21:25pm 20th Dec 2016

Jeff you still ignore the obvious FACT that had we won the five games I mentioned we would have won the title last season ! All I'm saying is that just beating your rivals or not beating them does not preclude a team from winning the league - Post No. 101693

mbg  21:30pm 20th Dec 2016

Bonzo, press the button ? more like a pull cord with a wee ring that would be more apt they're both so out of date. wenger go home to France for Xmas and don't come back. - Post No. 101694

Smithy  21:39pm 20th Dec 2016

Perhaps the continual re employment of arsene is about not really competing- a strategic plan by Ivan and silent Stan.They have no interest in winning and gambling financially it is all about profit and nothing else. Unfortunately the board still think the wizard of oz's curtain is still working but for the majority it is just an old man holding up a megaphone - the illusion is a busted flush. He has no credibility left. - Post No. 101695

mbg  21:41pm 20th Dec 2016

jj, how sad is that, wanting their messiah to win the title before someone else does, it just goes to show and prove it's him they love and not the club, and it also shows and proves even they know his time is up, and it's time for change. - Post No. 101696

Leek fc  22:13pm 20th Dec 2016

Yaaaaawwwwwwnnnn. Bell end bonzo. So much to say, so little to offer. zzzzzzzzzzzzz. - Post No. 101697

jeff wright  22:59pm 20th Dec 2016

Okay Nick but if Leicester had beaten us twice then...oh ! - Post No. 101698

Bonzo  23:23pm 20th Dec 2016

Squeak you're still breathing what a relief, please tell us your views on the last two titanic clashes with the almighty Wengo in charge. I would ask your pal Jameeba but he's to busy weeping and keeps on going on about wanting his ball back. - Post No. 101700

Paul Ward  23:36pm 20th Dec 2016

Greg thats easy , would rather both players left if it meant we got a new manager. We've had them in tandem for 2 or 3 years anyway and haven't win the league, their sale would guarantee the new man a nice transfer kitty too. - Post No. 101701

Bonzo  6:09am 21st Dec 2016

Squeak - looks like Draxler is off to PSG so if Wengo goes as well you'll be made up, no more of those nasty Arsenal supporters. Give us a P' Give us an 'S' give us a 'G'... I mean even the songs are shorter. I know Jamee will miss you. - Post No. 101702

Snowbiggee  6:44am 21st Dec 2016

Wenger's target every year is the 75 points he needs to get Champions League football and the maximum financial payout for the least cost. If the goal was a sporting one then he would either be incentivised differently or been sacked long ago. From a sporting perspective he clearly cannot compete as a coach with the best in the game. Someone said the other day that Kroenke will only stay whilst Wenger does. That makes a huge amount of sense whilst AFC is run as an investment fund and not a football club. - Post No. 101703

Danny  8:44am 21st Dec 2016

The FACT is Nick we didn't win those games and we didn't win the title. And we won't ever win the title until we a board , manager and a team that that want to be winners at all costs. - Post No. 101704

Nick  9:11am 21st Dec 2016

Leicester did NOT beat ALL their main rivals for the title either lost twice to us drew with Tottenham once lost away to Liverpool drew at City ( I think) drew at home to manure yet despite that won the league ! As we didn't win it its not the games we DID win that stopped us it was the ones we did NOT emerge with all three points from that were to blame and ALL those games were against teams we SHOULD be beating or were leading in ! I know the game has changed since 2003 (not for the better in my opinion) but the simple truth that you MUST beat the so called lesser teams to have any chance of the title no matter HOW you fare against your closest challengers remains a huge factor. OK beating them too makes your title tilt all the more potent but it's been proven time and time again that it is NOT that alone that wins the big one ! So despite us losing to city it has been the draws against Boro,and Leicester and against a manure team we really should have beaten as well as losing to an average Everton team despite being in front which has seen the gap widen between us and the chavs hado we won THOSE games we would be level on points at the top ! I don't mention the scum game because as a derby the results are never predictable yes had we won that too wed be two clear at the top , but even if we lost ALL our games against the four other top sides that would still leave us a chance to get NINETY points which is generally more than enough to win the title ! This is all rather moot really because we will NEVER do that under this manager nor will we ever get a clean sweep of results against our major rivals, we do just enough to finish IN the top four ! So Jeff this is my theory which I think I've backed up with facts and logic and while we may not agree on this I think we're on the same page regarding WHY Arsenal won't win a title by ANY means with Wenger at the helm ! - Post No. 101705

Peter  9:16am 21st Dec 2016

Jamerson Post No. 101699 You have no idea what you are talking about especially as I am married to a gallego and Pep is not a gallegan. I know the people from North West Spain move about a bit but Pep is from Barcelona in North East Spain. So do not put down the gallegans. Also how can you still keep on stating we are going to win the league under Wenger?? Yes Wenger was a great manager 10 years ago but now he has not kept up with the times and also what has Pep won compared with Wenger?? Do your maths or are your mathematics as bad as you geography? - Post No. 101706

GS  9:20am 21st Dec 2016

Good to see the Shower that run our club planning ahead, No not a new manager, but their Far East /Australia Tour 2017. What a Joke, chasing the $$$ all the way, with no thought to current issues and constant underachievement . Bunch of Cowboys the lot of them...In Wenger/Regime we Rust. - Post No. 101707

Ron  9:49am 21st Dec 2016

Leics trounced City at Etihad as i recall. It was on TV. - Post No. 101708

Gaz  10:21am 21st Dec 2016

Peter: Save yourself the bother of worrying what Jamerson thinks. He's nothing more than a non Arsenal supporting troll. - Post No. 101709

Make Arsenal Great again  10:34am 21st Dec 2016

As with Brexxit as with USA election - dont underestimate the power of the People. Arsenal is in reality owned by the supporters and if those supporters voice enough concerns, Actions will follow. As it is still the majority are not passionate or angry enough to demand a Change. But once there is enough noise then I promise you the Change will come. - Post No. 101710

jeff wright  10:49am 21st Dec 2016

Nick you are trying to rewrite history with your you can lose to the top sides and still win the title by beating all the lower ones .You used the United title win in 2003 ,a very different era to now, as I recall it different top 4 rules were in place and the league was weaker at the top end to use for the proof of this.As I said before that season was a one off for United and they did not lose any games to any top 4 opponents in their last 2011 title win. What you are doing is to try and rewrite history to make things fit into your argument. It's a mathematical fact Nick that had we won ALL of our game last season then no one else could have done so - but we did not do it.Your rewriting of what this or that would have occurred is just another if my Aunt Mary had balls she would be my uncle scenario. Changing results to support your case can be used by EVERY other side as well so it's just really an exercise in futility .I never claimed that just beating top 4 opponents in its self means that we would win the title but that it helps by depriving those sides of points while we gain them a double whammy .In the end though it's total points won against every team that counts. Wenger's record against top sides is very poor and this is why he has never won anything in Europe and never will . One aspect of beating top sides against just being fast track bullies winning against lower ones that we should beat anyway is that it helps with building confidence for when we play other top ones particularly in Europe .However,under Wengo confidence is fragile because he himself is fragile and his sides mirror that. Even in his hey day -donkeys years back - he still failed in Europe when he had the players to win trophies there .He also blew a couple of good Prem title chances and did so again last season .His achilles heel is when confronted by managers who are tactically more astute than he is - look at his appalling record against Mourinho for example .That is not down to bad luck but Wengo's own shortcomings.He should have been replaced long ago. - Post No. 101712

Outrunner86  11:22am 21st Dec 2016

The answer to the finishing question it obvious. I would take losing Ozil and Sanchez any day if it meant Wenger left. So long as Wenger is in charge it doesn't really matter who is out there on the pitch, the results will stay the same. - Post No. 101717

mbg  18:31pm 21st Dec 2016

GS, yes and another joke is these fans who will follow them there too, like they do on every tour pre season tour, probably the same fans who sang there's only one arsene wenger as he cowered in his seat at old Trafford as we were being stuffed and humiliated 8-2, there's not much chance of getting fans to vote with their feet when there's fans willing to pay and travel to the other side of the world for meaningless friendlies. - Post No. 101736

N4  1:36am 22nd Dec 2016

At last a long awaiting decent question, lose both players and the manager. Any good manager can work with our current crop...Leicester proved it. - Post No. 101754

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